FPJ Jugalbandi: Rajesh Ramakrishnan & Nirupama Subramanian On Why Leadership Needs 'Empathy, Not Hierarchy'

In the latest episode of FPJ Jugalbandi, the dynamic husband-wife duo and co-authors, Rajesh Ramakrishnan and Nirupama Subramanian delve into their thought-provoking book ‘The Nurturing Quotient’. The book explores how nurturing leadership can be a powerful tool for employers looking to connect with a new generation of employees that values empathy and purpose over hierarchy and authority.

Beyond offering compelling insights on leadership and workplace culture, the couple shares a candid look at their creative collaboration, offering glimpses into their writing process—and the secrets behind their strong and joyful partnership.

Nirupama, the founder and CEO of Powerfulife Solutions, is a leadership coach and change catalyst. Rajesh, her unwavering partner in life and work, supports her vision while bringing his wealth of experience as the former Managing Director of Perfetti Van Melle India.

Excerpts from the interview:

What is The Nurturing Wuotient and what do you mean by it?

Rajesh: The premise for the book was that in today's world there are a lot of things happening around us and it takes a toll on leaders. It's important for them to periodically put back energy into themselves so that they can perform to their full potential and in turn can nurture others to perform to their potential as well. So, we said, “Let's create something which allows us to find how leaders can nurture themselves and nurture others.” Just like EQ and IQ, we decided to come with this concept of NQ, which is the nurturing quotient- a measure of ability to nurture self and others.

What prompted you to write the book?

Nirupama: For the last 25 years, I've been working in the field of leadership development as a facilitator, designer of programmes and an executive coach. In my conversations and interactions with leaders what kept coming up repeatedly is that they were feeling stressed. Things are changing rapidly and we're really struggling to get the best out of people, especially across generations. So, I asked myself, “Why are leaders struggling so much?” Traditional "command-and-control" leadership styles don’t work anymore. So, we felt it was time to redefine what leadership should look like — especially in today’s fast-changing, post-pandemic world.

Young people who are entering the workforce need a completely different model of leadership. They are no longer going to stick around in the same organisation for 25 years. So, these were some of the things that I picked up in the course of my work and Rajesh brings 30 years of experience in the corporate world being a leader and a managing director.

Rajesh: Work is important, but do you have a life and an identity outside of work and what that does is it really helps you energize yourself. I'm sure all of us have various passions that we follow and every time we are playing a sport or performing somewhere or listening to music, we get energised and I think it's important for us to be able to then perform to our potential and nurture others. I think that’s where this whole thought process came from.

Could you talk about the different set of challenges women face in the workforce, particularly those who choose to have kids?

Nirupama: A lot of my work is on women leadership. In fact, in my last book, ‘Powerful: The Indian Woman's Guide to Unlocking her Full Potential’, I've created a model and taken this to women leaders. There are few women in leadership roles and the ones who are face different set of challenges than men. So, it's very important for them to draw from their personal power which is what we hope ‘The Nurturing Quotient’ also provides – that is, understanding and devoting time for yourself. The women we worked with had to be very intentional about self-care because they actually are quite overloaded also on the personal front in terms of carrying the domestic load and leadership themselves. Leadership is an added responsibility where you haven't let go of the other caregiving responsibility. So, for women, they have to be even more intentional about nurturing themselves.

I've had male leaders say we want to get more women in our organization because they're so nurturing. I believe that men and women both need to be nurturing. Just because you're a woman you needn't be nurturing and it is something we can learn and acquire as a critical leadership skill. The ability to nurture is not always inherent or inborn. It is a skill we can acquire. It's a mindset shift that men and women can and need to make.

When you talk about tools for nurturing, can you elaborate more on an easier way for people to learn these?

Rajesh: When it comes to nurturing the self, we've called it physical, emotional, mental and spiritual well-being. This is the mind, body, heart and soul. And how can one nurture oneself along all four domains of energy? When it comes to nurturing others, we've come up with this acronym called MILE, which is Mentoring and coaching, Inspiring, Listening and Empowering. These are four ways in which leaders can sort of nurture others.

Nirupama: We also found that behaviours come from certain qualities and we discovered four critical qualities that are important to be a nurturing leader. We call that ‘HOPE’ (Humility, Openness, Patience, Empathy) because you always nurture with the hope that things will grow and come to their full potential.

Tools and practices need to be created and lead to habits. So, at the end, we say, “How do you actually create habits?” We have a tool framework called ‘AiSH” because you want ease in your life. First become aware of yourself and what you need to do. Set a very strong intention. That's the ‘Ai’. And then of course you ‘Start’. Start acting because you can't just sit and say, “I’ll do it tomorrow or the day after.” The ‘H’ is habit formation. Start, but don't stop. Do it consistently. By nurturing skills and behaviours you can become aware and then make it into a habit.

What would you say to a leader who feels the need to maintain a certain demeanour to earn respect? Did you come across any such person during the course of your research?

Rajesh: If you look at leadership and leaders, there are all kinds. We had the good fortune of meeting over 117 CEOs. A few things that leaders talk about is the importance of showing up. I might have something great happening at home or

there might be pressure somewhere else, stress coming from somewhere. As a leader, I need to show up in a way that keeps the morale of the team and organisation up. So, you have leadership from that perspective as well. 

At the same time, we also had a few leaders who love to talk about what we did and this is how we turned around a business or we took care of a challenge, so on and so forth. So, I guess it's a mix of the go-getters and ambitious ones. I think that's the beauty of this book in the sense that we had all kinds of leaders and we were able to pull out nuggets of wisdom from them.

Nirupama: There's a diversity of inputs and opinions and I thought there is no single way of nurturing yourself. In fact, what we were able to distil out from these interviews are the factors which impact how you nurture, which comes from your values. What have you grown up with? So, people who have a strong value of giving to others are more nurturing of others. The second was personality types. Extroverts get more energy from engaging and connecting and introverts get energy from within themselves. We found personality factors make a difference. We found culture makes a difference. We've seen there is a greater stress on having more of a life outside work in Europe. Your holidays are important but in certain cultures work has to consume you. Whether they are social or spiritual also makes an impact and reflects in your leadership. The second thing we found is that it's always a tussle. I need to find the sweet spot between self-orientation and other-orientation. Leaders need to find that sweet spot. I need to balance between being disciplined but also being flexible. I can't say this is the only way I do it. At the same time, I cannot be without structure. The third one was between ambition and compassion. You're ambitious for yourself but can you also be compassionate to others?

Do you think there is a realisation now that mechanistic ways of working have to be changed or is this something you’re trying to bring in?

Rajesh: I think compassion has two components to it. One is compassion towards others and the second is self-compassion. One of the things we realise is that leaders need to be a little bit more forgiving of themselves. You are, at the end of the day, a human being who's now got a responsibility in a certain position. But that doesn't make you a super man or a superwoman. It's still important for you to be vulnerable, authentic, and compassionate towards yourself as well. Am I being forgiving to myself? Am I okay with being able to only do so much? I think this whole angle of self-compassion takes on a very different dimension in today's context. 

It's important for leaders to set the bar high but, at the same time, be aware that everything may not happen the way you want it to. We will work towards that high bar. But things may not happen and we should be okay with that. I think that's the self-compassion part of it. How do you balance between the business agenda and the people's agenda? That's always a tough one, what we call tough love. You need to be tough to get the results going. At the same time, you need to still love the people and care for them enough to say that it's the people who are going to end up driving.

Nirupama: The idea is to look at the leader’s work as that of a gardener. Not as a general or a taskmaster, but that of a gardener. We saw that there are four processes that you need to do. First, prepare the soil which is the organization culture, the climate, the environment. It's a leader's role to make sure the soil or the environment is really conducive to growth; not contaminated. It's usually the mission, the vision, the values and we do a lot of work in helping organizations identify that. So, prepare the soil first and that's a big differentiator in whether your plant will grow or not. Then plant the seeds, get the right people on board. Respect the people and one of the leaders actually said, “I hire for vibes. I want to see that you and the soil are compatible, that you will grow in this soil and the soil can take you and plant the seeds of new ideas, new thoughts.”

That's what a leader does and then continuously provides sunshine and water which is the mentoring, the coaching, the motivation, the feedback which is the nurturing part. The last, which is also important, is pulling out the weeds. Root out the negative energies, the elements and sometimes you have to kill your darlings. Sometimes you have to say that this no longer serves us as an organization. You have weeds slowly taking over your garden if you're not doing the pruning and the cutting from time to time which is why all of this requires patience. It requires hope and also intuition.

There’s a popular saying worldwide that culture eats strategy for lunch, dinner and breakfast. What is your take on this?

Rajesh: I came across a very interesting and simple leadership model about two to three decades ago which said set the agenda, take others with you and do it the right way. It was a simple three-step model which I have used throughout my working life. If you look at the setting of the agenda part of it, which is about having a mission, vision, values and creating a strategy. That you can still outsource and get some of these consultants to come and do. The third one, doing it the right way, is about having the right systems and processes, the right ethical practices, governance etc. The one piece which differentiates a good leader and a great leader is the middle part, which is taking others along with you and I think that's what leadership is all about.

If you are a leader who is able to build a culture which supports collaboration and teamwork, where people work towards that common vision and they are all able to work closely towards that agenda, it really shapes the kind of culture that you want. So, to your point, can culture eat strategy for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Absolutely yes. If you have the right culture in the organization, that requires patience. If I can't build a strategy by myself, I can get a McKinsey or a BCG or a Bain to come and build a strategy for me but the culture I have to create along with my team. That's the more sustainable one to deliver on the strategy. 

As husband and wife, what were some of the pitfalls of working on a common project?

Nirupama: I won't say collaboration is easy. You might have to go through labour pains but the output of it is beautiful. This is not a book I would have written on my own. I've written three books so I'm used to writing as a solitary activity. But I believe a book like this would not have happened if we hadn't collaborated. The important thing was we were aligned on the topic, the theme and the big chunks. We bring a different kind of experience -- mine as a consultant having worked with multiple leaders and Rajesh from being on the ground as a managing director, as a leader who has led people, who has taken it along and who lives the nurturing leadership. Did we have disagreements every day? Yes, and that is what I think collaboration is all about. If it were easy, if you immediately agreed, you might not come up with an output which is distinct.

Rajesh: She's a knowledge seeker so she brings in a lot of research. I am a connector. I love engaging with people. Just to share a small anecdote, our initial thought was let's talk to 20 or 25 CEOs, get some insights on and hypothesis on how leaders work and how they nurture themselves and we'll use that as small research to write the book. That 20 became 30, 30 became 50, it went close to 100. Then Penguin said, “Why don't we get it to 100?” Eventually, we met 117 CEOs. I can tap into my network, get inputs from these various CEOs, and see how we can connect the dots. In that way it worked beautifully because she brought in research expertise and having worked with so many leaders in different areas could bring in a different dimension.

Did you, at any point, feel you had had too much of each other given you were together at home and at work?

Nirupama: We are married for 30 years, which is a long time. You get used to each other's idiosyncrasies. I think respect is important. We respect what each person brings to the table. He respects my writing, my inputs and insights and I respect whatever he brings in the feedback.

Rajesh: We also gave each other space. We divided the chapters. She wrote a few chapters. I wrote a few. Then we looked at each other's work to say, "Hey, this could be slightly different. What do you think of this?" I think it's about getting the right balance. 

What are your mantras for having a successful relationship?

Rajesh: I think one is mutual respect. Like I'm a big extrovert, I love meeting people, I draw energy from people. She is relatively less so. There are times when I say I'm going out and meeting people. She would be happy with her Netflix and popcorn or a book. There are things we do together but there are also things where I say I'm going and doing this. I have a lot of other passions, for instance, photography. I go off on my photography expeditions.

Nirupama: I think Kahlil Gibran or somebody said something beautiful about marriages. Let there be space in your togetherness. I'm like you do your thing, I do my thing and we do our thing as well.

What do you define as success and happiness? How do you achieve it?

Rajesh: To me, happiness is about small things in the moment. It's like those glimmer moments that we talk about. Having a nice meal, having a coffee with a friend could be as heavy as writing a book. I'm a big believer of the circle of concern and circle of influence. The more I'm able to operate in the circle of influence where I can do something about it versus saying oh this is bad, I'm happy.

Nirupama: My company is called Powerful Life and that's because when I was doing my last book, I did a lot of research and I thought for me success is living a powerful life. What I mean by living a powerful life is when you are living a life which is aligned with your values, purpose and strengths. For me that is success. It's not about the size of your bank balance, what car you're driving or what assets you have accumulated but just having that clarity is what makes me happy.

This is who I am and I accept myself truly and fully for who I am. I am living a purpose that is meaningful and worthwhile whatever that is. I'm not saying you have to be a CEO. Though we talk about leaders, I am living a life aligned to my purpose values, feeling joyful and also hopefully spreading joy around.

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