I’m not a general to take over anything, said Muhammad Yunus about his comments on India’s northeast

DHAKA

 

Exclusive Interview/ Muhammad Yunus, Nobel laureate and chief adviser, Bangladesh interim government

 

At 84, Nobel laureate Muhammad Yunus is at the helm of a transitional government in Bangladesh―a country grappling with political upheaval, shattered institutions and the hopes of a restless generation. For many, it’s an unexpected turn in the life of a man best known not for politics, but for reinventing banking, winning global acclaim and challenging economic orthodoxy.

 

One of the founding members of The Elders―an international NGO once chaired by Nelson Mandela―Yunus grew up in the tiny village of Bathua in Chittagong. His father, Haji Muhammad Dula Mia Shawdagar, ran a small shop and would often bring in little Yunus to teach him the basics of economics. These would be the principles the boy would later apply in radically different ways.

 

As a Boy Scout, Yunus loved joining the other children in camping, cooking and crossing oceans to see new lands. It was a skill that he kept as he grew, finding alternative solutions and giving birth to creativity out of complexity.

 

Today, sitting at Jamuna State Guest House in Dhaka―the seat of power handed to him by the very youngsters who overthrew the powerful Sheikh Hasina regime―Yunus is at the wheel; Bangladesh is at a crossroads.

 

For his own people, Yunus is the man holding the magic wand of reform that can usher in free and fair elections. Whether his unconventional ways will succeed in the complex world of politics remains a matter of debate.

 

In a highly charged political atmosphere, seasoned politicians―as also Bangladesh’s neighbours―are watching closely to see if this NGO-styled academic can lead his country into a critical democratic transition.

 

It is not surprising that we find Yunus reminiscing. “The framework of Grameen Bank (which won him the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006 for his microfinance scheme) was completely against the way institutions were built,” he said. “It was like the whole banking institution was based on a wrong premise. The very basic principle of banking is: the more money you have, the more money you get. I said that is wrong. So I reversed the whole banking system in my own little way. I removed the whole idea of collateral. You don’t have to bring anything, or be recommended by somebody, or show that you have some property. You bring nothing; you’re just a human being. That’s good enough for me. I can do business with it.”

 

The success of Grameen Bank silenced detractors; Bangladesh waits to see if he can do it again. Excerpts from an exclusive interview:

 

Q/ You have shown the world a different approach in academics, fighting poverty, running a business and now in politics. Were you ready for this challenge?

 

A/ At the time, I was busy with the Paris Olympics, trying to make sports a unifying force with economic, social and environmental initiatives aimed at fostering a responsible and sustainable approach to the event. But then I got a call from one of the student leaders in Bangladesh who said, ‘You have to become the head of this government. Right now there is no government, and we have decided that you would be the one to do that.’ I said, ‘No, you’re the one who is deciding this, not me. I’m not interested in doing that. Please find somebody else, because that’s not the kind of thing I would like to do.’

 

But they kept calling me. Finally, on the last day, I asked them why they couldn’t find one person willing to [take the job]. As the day got over, they came back to me saying they had tried but could not succeed. Finally, I agreed and told them that after [learning from] the newspapers and television about what’s happening in Bangladesh, where so many lives have been lost―it could have been any one of them, too―their sacrifice and struggle made me realise that if they (students) could give up their lives for the country, maybe I should not be hesitant to do so, too. So, I am here because of the inspiration of people.

 

This is how it all started. The students asked me to come right away. But I was in hospital at the time and I asked my doctors to discharge me so I could travel. Finally, they discharged me. They were surprised that this guy who was just here was now in the newspapers being declared the leader of the interim government in Bangladesh. By then, the news spread in Paris and the doctors assured me they would do everything to ensure my safe travel to Bangladesh. So that’s how I came to Bangladesh on August 8, but the entire thing (the fall of the Sheikh Hasina government) happened on August 5. For three days there was no government.

 

Q/ The interim government has completed eight months. What have been the challenges and what are the shortcomings?

 

A/ When I took over the responsibility, I saw the country was shattered. The economy was shut down, the institutions were dysfunctional, everything was kind of mutilated and destroyed. So, the first challenge is to see how we can create something out of this disaster. The banking system doesn’t work because all the money has been siphoned off. There are huge amounts of outstanding loans for the government to pay because the foreign exchange reserve department in the banking system has lost all the money. Billions of dollars have been transferred from Bangladesh to somewhere else. So you see, nothing is working. You have to build an economy that will function and we have to build it piece by piece―whether it is the whole of economic structures, institutions or policies.

 

This is a huge challenge because the people who are running them are cronies or the disciples of the previous regime. So you are not sure whether they are going to work for you. They’re just destroying what you want to do. So we have to shift out those people and ensure that people who run the country are believers in the new system. We have to build a new Bangladesh out of this disaster. It’s like after an earthquake where all those buildings that were there are not there suddenly, and there is devastation around you. So you have to pick up the pieces and build your life again.

 

None of the institutions was functioning properly. The police were not doing their duty; rather [they were] shooting and killing people. People are afraid to go to them because they could be attacked anytime. So it is a long process, very long one to rebuild Bangladesh.

 

Our first job is to make sure that the capability and credibility of these institutions is established. For example, almost 75 per cent of the money in the banking system were loans which were never returned. So how do you start anything with bad loans? Can the banks function any more? The question is whether you can afford to close down all the banks or keep one or two open. So, we decided to keep the banks functional and see how the government can support them and ensure the depositors have faith in the banking system.

 

This entire process [of rebuilding] is new because there are no precedents. Everything is new. Everyone suspects everyone else. For example, if we talk about the law and order situation, people blame the law enforcement agencies for atrocities against the common man. Therefore, we have to create a police force or an economy that can restore the faith of the people.

 

Q/ Now that the interim government is rolling out so many reforms, do you think the time is ripe to hold elections and allow the elected government to carry out the reforms?

 

A/ All the institutions have been mutilated and de-shaped. So if you want to use them again, the same structure again, fascism will return in full spirit because these are the things that supported and led the system to grow in the wrong direction. So, one of the basic decisions taken right from day one is to reform the system and everything in it case by case, item by item.

 

So we started creating what people call the reform commissions and brought together a group of people, the best minds we can find on a particular issue, to suggest whether there is a need to redesign the constitution itself, reject the whole constitution or whatever else you want to do. This is a big debate. We have left it to the commission to decide in consultation with everyone and, whatever the recommendation is, we will follow it. But we have to create sanity out of this whole mess.

 

We have also created the election reform commission because even the election process had become fake. The structures existed―like the parliament, the election commission and the cabinet―but the spirit or content of it didn’t exist.... The country has had elections, but these [last] three elections were absolutely fake and elected a fake government. Many people felt there was no other option and accepted it. But I believe that if you continue to do that, you will have another fake election that will produce another fake government. Therefore, reforms become the most essential part of bringing a change.... We have created 15 reform commissions, and they worked very hard. This has started showing results as we have begun printing, publishing and distributing the reports to political parties and asking them on a spreadsheet to select their options like: Do you agree? If you don’t agree, what is it that you don’t agree with? Do you want to amend it?

 

So, this is the process that is going on at the moment and for this we have created a separate commission that will build consensus. The work of the consensus commission is to ask all the political parties their opinion and identify the items everybody agrees on or most of them agree on, and put them separately. Then there can be items most do not agree on and they will be put down separately. The ultimate goal is to see what they agree upon and don’t. For example, if there are 40 political parties and we have 40 opinions, we will take out the common ones to share with everyone and proceed with the next step.

 

Q/ Is there a timeline to this process? When can the elections be held?

 

A/ December is the beginning line. If you want to finish it before that, then it depends on how many of them (political parties) agree to it. The election can happen from December onwards anytime, but it should not cross June. We are waiting for the consensus list, and then we’ll invite all the political parties to sign it.

 

We will call it the July charter. The whole nation agrees on this. This will be something very unique in Bangladesh history. It’s very difficult to get all the political parties to agree on anything. So at least we will have something all of them agree on and then we will have to implement it because we all agree.

 

Once we prepare the charter, there can be another consensus-building process on the amendments that can be done before and after the election. Once we do that and all parties come forward, it can be the starting point for the elections to take place.

 

Q/ Concerns have been raised about false cases, poor quality of investigation and prosecutions under the Awami League regime. What are your assurances that the same will not be done against the Awami League?

 

A/ The whole idea is that if you’re following the Awami League prescription, then there is no reason why this government should exist because you are just contributing the same old thing that you said was wrong. Our job is to make sure we are not doing that. We have to do it the proper way, in a legal way.

 

Q/ You have always called India a close ally. You met Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the sidelines of the BIMSTEC (Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multi-Sectoral Technical and Economic Cooperation) summit in Bangkok about a month ago. How was your interaction and how do you see the relationship going forward?

 

A/ As soon as I took this responsibility, one issue that kept bothering me was how to revive SAARC (South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation). I have been a big fan, admirer and supporter of SAARC ever since the idea was launched. It was any young person’s dream about the whole subcontinent and I still remain very devoted to SAARC. So, when I got into the government, I was very sad when I realised that SAARC is a forgotten word.... In September, there was the United Nations General Assembly meeting. So I kept asking if we could have a meeting of SAARC countries before we go to the General Assembly. We could not do that. So I came to the General Assembly and wanted five minutes with the heads of government of all SAARC countries to take a picture to show that we are still here. But we could not do that. Why is that? SAARC was such a great dream of having no borders and allowing citizens of these countries to travel, work and invest anywhere, just the way our minds are filled with emotions and excitement when we think of the European Union. But today, it is just falling apart. The answer I get is that it’s also because of the (strained) relationship between India and Pakistan. But I feel India and Pakistan are two countries while SAARC is a bigger conglomeration. Why can’t we try to revive it and solve the problems, because the whole idea is being together.

 

I’m always talking about bringing all countries together, not the way it was being done so far, but in the SAARC spirit. The relationship between Bangladesh and India should be the best in the world because we are neighbours. I keep mentioning that we cannot literally draw the map of India without drawing the map of Bangladesh. This shows how integrated we are and there is no reason why we should not be. In so many houses, the border passed through their living rooms with one part of their house in India and the other in Bangladesh. We are integrated by nature. We speak the same language, [share the] same history and follow the same culture. We need to go back and see why this relationship is not functioning the same way. I have raised this concern time and again and continue to raise it because our fate is linked together.

 

Q/ What would you prescribe to bring this relationship back on track?

 

A/ Let us work together and go back to the SAARC spirit. We can start with Bangladesh and India together, before we talk about other countries. Why don’t we open up things so that we can reach out to each other? At least in this corner of SAARC with Bhutan, Nepal and others.

 

Q/ Are you talking about visas, trade...

 

A/ I am talking about everything within this corner. And that’s where I mentioned the Seven Sisters and said we should be doing business together. This (SAARC region) can be an economic entity by itself.

 

Q/ Do you think your comments about India’s northeast states (he said Bangladesh was the only guardian of the ocean in the region) were taken out of context?

 

A/ Absolutely, this is what I’m saying, I am talking of integrating. But they said, ‘Oh, he’s talking about taking over.’ My God, I’m not a general to take over anything. I’m the guy who’s bringing people together. My whole journey started with this position. SAARC is not about fighting with each other. Why are we fighting? The first thing I raised is the need to work together. We should hold meetings frequently so that we can understand each other more and overcome the problems. Shying away from each other does not solve problems.

 

Q/ How do you see Bangladesh’s relationship changing vis a vis China or Pakistan? After years, many delegation visits are taking place.

 

A/ Well, there are economic reasons for it. We have a lot of business with China because we buy so many things from it and that’s one important reason we want to build this relationship to benefit us economically. China is not the only country we are building bridges with. I was talking about SAARC but I am also looking at ASEAN and I have told everyone that I want to be in ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations).

 

We are part of Southeast Asia, so why didn’t you take us in? I have approached the ASEAN countries to explore if we can become a member. It will be a good achievement for Bangladesh to be part of SAARC, BIMSTEC and ASEAN. That’s how relationships between countries should develop.

 

Q/ Do you see a rise in fundamentalism or vigilantism on the streets of Bangladesh?

 

A/ I’m glad you’re here. You’re not talking to me from south India or from Delhi or somewhere else. You can check it out yourself because most of the propaganda and fake news kind of destroyed all the relationship we can ever build with each other. If there is a case, go examine why that has happened. We are here [to examine] case by case. We are not a country of saints. We are just people. We have instances where things did go wrong, but that doesn’t mean it’s a crazy country that kills each other, kills their people. That’s not Bangladesh. Ask about how many pujas have taken place since the interim government took over? Did they perform their puja freely or [not]? When the allegations were made that minorities are being attacked and Hindus are being killed, I talked to the law enforcement officers and put in place a mechanism―if they have one case of a Hindu being killed anywhere, or any minority person anywhere in Bangladesh, then the police station should report it to us immediately and we will take action immediately. So we are getting feedback every day and I do not see any new patterns. [These are incidents of crime] that happen in any country. It is not that Muslims are killing people of other communities or even transgenders or each other.

 

Q/ So you are not attributing it to communalism, but crime in general. Or is it political violence?

 

A/ There’s some political violence, which is instigated violence because people who have been ousted from this country are trying to come back. So they have their own policies, particularly when India keeps Sheikh Hasina on its [soil] and she’s allowed to make speeches and every speech made by her is very inciting.

 

People don’t like to listen to her. It makes them very angry. She is encouraging people to rise [in Bangladesh], to take over everything once again. These kind of speeches are destabilising the country. I have mentioned it to Modi ji and other (Indian government) officials as well.

 

Q/ What response did you get from the Indian government?

 

A/ The response is that we cannot stop her freedom of speech by controlling her voice. She is free to use social media. It is not a very helpful thing to say that. So this is where we are right now. It is not helping bring the tensions down because she is always sparking more tension as soon as the atmosphere cools down.

Q/ Do you think the anti-Hasina feeling is also translating into anti-India sentiment? Do you think governments in future can differentiate between the two? Are you hopeful?

 

A/ I am not only hopeful, but I also want it to happen. Since you are keeping her in your country, I cannot stop you from doing that, but you can stop her from speaking since it creates tension within Bangladesh, and that spills over between the two countries. People get angry because not only is it coming from the political party (Awami League), but also from India because it is hosting her. It will continue to remain this way till people who are impacted by the violence (unleashed by the Awami League) get justice.

 

Q/ How do you see the role of the Awami League going forward? Will there be a ban on it from contesting elections?

 

A/ It has been about eight months (since the interim government took charge). Nobody has stopped the Awami League from running their party and nobody is saying we are going to stop them. This is all speculation. Whether the Awami League will exist or not is a decision the Awami League will take. They have not said they won’t exist any more but they have also not declared themselves as a (political) party that wants to participate in the elections. So, they have to take the first step.

 

Q/ We saw a cross section of people participating in the July uprising, including the Jamaat-e-Islami. How do you see the Jamaat playing a role in the next elections?

 

A/ When we moved from Hasina’s world to a new Bangladesh, we promised ourselves that we would be a democratic country with freedom of speech. So anybody who has anything to say can do that as long as they follow the rules, are not violent and do not disrupt the lives of people. So we cannot exclude the Jamaat when we are following this principle of allowing everyone to share their thoughts freely.

 

Q/ What are your thoughts on political Islam? Should there be any apprehension?

 

A/ Let us go back to the principle of freedom of speech, freedom of practice, and not just focus on specific things but adhere to these principles.

 

Q/ After elections are held, the students might want your continued guidance. What will be your role in new Bangladesh?

 

A/ The role of the interim government is to prepare the country for a credible election, which was not happening earlier. That’s our ambition, our dream. We are an interim government and have no political ambitions. The day elections are held and winners are declared, we will say goodbye and go home. That’s our job.

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